Curse

Rocky Raccoon · Apr 18, 2009, 01:02 PM // 13:02

3 Words can explain the reasons for charging "Changing Economic Conditions"; The gaming industry is not immune. We the consumer will let ANET know if the pricing is right or wrong, and that won't be known until the update is released.
As for the auction house, if ANET envisioned GW as a PvP hybrid with people transitioning from PvE, there would have been no need for it. The game evolved differently from ANET's original plan and thus the problems started.

Bryant Again · Apr 18, 2009, 01:20 PM // 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

You can do PvP from the start. And then if you don't suck - you unlock things as you go.
There is absolutely no need whatsoever to do PvE.

You make it sound so inconsequential. Given the massive amount of skills and items, the large amount the lead to more situational builds, the smaller amount that leader to less situational builds, skill changes, all adding up to no direction as "what to unlock first", getting everything "as you go" is *far* more easier said than done. PvP should never require "leveling up".

upier · Apr 18, 2009, 01:40 PM // 13:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

You make it sound so inconsequential. Given the massive amount of skills and items, the large amount the lead to more situational builds, the smaller amount that leader to less situational builds, skill changes, all adding up to no direction as "what to unlock first", getting everything "as you go" is *far* more easier said than done. PvP should never require "leveling up".

Knowing what to unlock first equals knowing what build is good.
Which means if the player does not know what skills are good enough to unlock, that the same player should be unable to select these skills even if they are all unlocked already.

Like I said, free UAX would be pretty close to being core - but, still just close.

T1Cybernetic · Apr 18, 2009, 01:53 PM // 13:53

The only thing that interests me at the moment is the 1 time only promo pane? i really wish we know what the promotion was

i hate not knowing...

Bryant Again · Apr 18, 2009, 01:57 PM // 13:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Knowing what to unlock first equals knowing what build is good.
Which means if the player does not know what skills are good enough to unlock, that the same player should be unable to select these skills even if they are all unlocked already.

Exactly right: zero direction, which will likely lead to numerous subpar build possibilities, which may lead to a frustrated player at later learning what he had done wrong and annoyed at be required to run with a limited builds in order to get better builds. Then there's the unpredictability of skill changes which may or may not directly limit what used to be a broad build. Blaggidy blah, list goes on.

There is 0 for ANet to not make universal UAX core besides money, that's the worst part. There is horrible substance in requiring players to go through so much to be viable, especially when not given a single lick of where to go first. RPGPvP is just not good, I can't stand it in WoW, I can barely tolerate it in WAR, and I was hoping to entirely avoid it in GW.

Nodakim · Apr 18, 2009, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

I am finding this entire argument quite ludicrous...

We still do not know the EXACT details of what we will be getting in the FREE update yet. The absurdity of people complaining about what a company chooses to sell to its consumers, at a very tiny price point even!

My young nefew blows about $10 every 2 weeks on YuGiOh cards...out of which he might get 0 cards that are of use to him.

Is the price really an issue?
Is extra storage going to have a major impact on gameplay?

As for me personally, once I move all my weapons and armour into the FREE equipment packs I should have 4 empty storge panes.

*shrugs*

You dont get it,the topic is more about the way they keep charging for stuff that probably should have been in the game for start.
I mean currently it looks like we are gonna have to pay for updates in GW2.

MithranArkanere · Apr 18, 2009, 03:12 PM // 15:12

That's like saying that your car should have a bigger trunk just because other cars have it or because after you bought the car you found the trunk too small.
It already was like that when you bought it, no one sold you something without a part it should have.

The game is build to be 'pay once'. So they had to save resources anywhere they could.

There only thing the game 'should' really have had from the start, are those that are described in advertisements, boxes, the official site, etc...
There's nothing saying 'a big storage to put stuff in'.

Coverticus · Apr 18, 2009, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nodakim

You dont get it,the topic is more about the way they keep charging for stuff that probably should have been in the game for start.
I mean currently it looks like we are gonna have to pay for updates in GW2.

Does anyone here actually live in the real world? As the quote here just about sums it up.

This game has been in existence for 4 years. Yes 4 years - or 48 months or 1461 days. We only had to buy the games and voila, we could play as much as we want. So AreaNet gave us OPTIONAL extras which were OUTSIDE of the main games. Character slots, BMP, Skill Packs, GOTY and now Storage.

You didn't have to buy them since they did not affect how you played the game. It made it easier yes, if you did indeed purchase any of these. But in essence, not required. And yet this thread is up in arms about having to PAY for something that they have decided to code and deliver for us. Didn't have to but they have. And we still don't know what we are getting 100% either.

How many example's of applications (be it games or consumer driven) actually are gotten right first time. Anything built and coded from scratch will always have bugs that require updates.

Whenever a whole raft of new features are released, it is part of a major update (Ver 2 from 1 for example). Generally you would be expected to pay an amount of money for this work. Generally but of course, there are exceptions to this rule.

However, based upon the times we are living in and also the fact that the product that is Guild Wars has more than likely exceeded ArenaNet's idea of it's shelf life (as well as sheer size), they have had to change how the GW business model works. Only slightly, but still enough for people to enjoy playing the game WITHOUT having the need to buy something from "the shop" so that they don't lose out on that gaming experience. As I have said in each of my posts here, yes I do think $10 is a little too much but thats the nature of a NEW release. Recoup the revenue and, in time, lower the price (possibly). That remains to be seen too.

So until we get this update and see truely what we actually get, this thread has become pointless drivel.

pumpkin pie · Apr 18, 2009, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

Although this overdrawn thread was about boycotting the panels, it is not the whole update.

Its 50usd if you buy everything that we already know we have to paid for in this update. That equal the price of a full game. And its 200-250 my currency. its no way near cheap okay. Now i just want to know if the equipment packs are free or comes from doing quests, or you get 5 slots bag for free and pay for the other sizes.

"What we're seeing in Guild Wars is when we release new content for the game, people who have stopped playing the game come back. We get this huge wave of people coming back into the game. And so, each one of these releases is very profitable for us. The game has done very well and so I think the business model has proven itself in terms of its success." circa Jul 30, 2007, Gamespot UK interview.

And sorry to say this, but this update will not bring back old players, last time when I told my good friends about new expansion they were very excited, this time is: WHAT DID YOU SAY? 10USD? THAT'S JUST STUPID.

Rocky Raccoon · Apr 18, 2009, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

And sorry to say this, but this update will not bring back old players, last time when I told my good friends about new expansion they were very excited, this this is WHAT DID YOU SAY? 10USD? THAT'S JUST STUPID.

You are just speculating unless you can see the future.

pumpkin pie · Apr 18, 2009, 03:41 PM // 15:41

RR, no, thats my friends saying, irl, lol, i always let them know whats happening in GW, cos i am the biggest addict among them, cos i want to play with them, but this time, nope, not gonna happen.

logically speaking, take you for instant, if you have stop playing, you would come back just to buy the storage tabs? when all this while you have not farm a single item to fill one single space in a bag? You seriously think, just because now you can add 4 more tabs to one single account, that players who have no interest in the game anymore will come back, just because now you can carry more stuffs in the storage? they will not.

Even for existing players who still say, doing the raptor farm. how many raptor are there for you to kill in one run that you need extra storage for? unless the raptors population is increased do we need extra storage in the character, otherwise this storage is moot. They could have use this time to make more "Mission Packs 2, 3, 4, 5, 6..." for USD10 I'd buy it, and give storage tabs for free if with the purchase of these mission packs. Like I say, Marketing screw up. not only will old players not come back, some existing players will simply see theres no need for this extra storage if its not free.

Nuclfus · Apr 18, 2009, 04:08 PM // 16:08

This reminds me of all the people that boycotted the Bonus Mission Pack promotion because to them it was just some kind of dirty trick to make "extra money." Remember that after they actually saw the content (shiny new e-peen weapons), some of these very same people accused Anet of tricking them into their own boycotting (for no apparent reason), then whined endlessly for the opportunity to pay "extra money" towards what would have cost nothing had they initially considered that maybe Anet just wanted to do something nice for them. Point here is to take a deep breath, and make sure you're not just setting yourself up to get burned by the way you choose to see things.

Make no mistake: whether Anet cares about the fans or not doesn't change the fact that they still need to make money and will act accordingly. If you're someone who thinks that's too greedy, fine. But while we're at it, let's also drop the notion that if Anet can give us something then somehow we're automatically entitled to it.

Personally I think $10 is a little high, so I'll keep my wallet shut and move on with my life. Why scream for a boycott and drag other people down with me if I miss out?

Fril Estelin · Apr 18, 2009, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I agree with you in that it justifies future product purchases if you are happy, but I don't think it justifies this. Never asking for subscription money was their promise to us from the beginning. I don't feel we should buy this because they kept their promise.

By "deserving", I was talking about bringing near-monthly updates for the last 48 months, having weekendly events, holiday events, yearly masks, bug patches, a few major updates (I got the BMP free with my EotN), a CR/M that's quite "involved" (actively or not) in the community. Of course you'll probably think that they also brought grinding, lowered the requirement for player skill, some bad ping spikes, letting down the PvP community, etc. and it's perfectly your right. As was said many times, each of us will have to make a decision on this offer (once we know all the details, that may or may not be changing when Anet reads this thread...) but I don't think it's going to be via threads like these (similarly to what happened for the BMP, which we don't know whether it sold well or not).

But on the topic of f2p, GW1 is still f2p, with additional products you can buy.

Quote:

Activision Blizzard exploits the easily exploitable. Anet is doing the same by selling things that shouldn't be sold. IMO if you purchase it you are exploited.

"Shouldn't be sold" according to you. You have a purist viewpoint, the viewpoint of someone who plays "seriously" games, possibly spending a lot of time on them (and playing a lot of them I guess). This is clearly not what most GW1 players are expecting, since they don't take games as seriously as you do (which IMHO is a good thing, since it's about fun, although player skill being low is not).

I may purchase and I also know that I won't be exploited (unless this "one-time offer" is indeed very bad). I know I haven't been exploited when I bought EotN in the online store and got the BMP.

Quote:

I can't see the future, but I see the past (and present)...which is the best predictor of the future.

Well this is your problem, you see a trend that I (and I bet many others) don't see. As I said, the next Anet product they sell may or may not convince me of that, but at this point, I've got little doubt that there's a trend showing that Anet is trying to change its business model.

Quote:

Yea I suppose. You know Fril I think you have some of the more reasonable posts in favor of this, but I think we will agree to disagree on this just like everything else. You know my position that I prefer Guild Wars the way it used to be, and the reason I don't play it as much now is because all these little changes over time added up to be something I don't like as much anymore.

Fair enough, but I think you should put a little bit of "pragmatic sugar" in your tea (I put a little bit of "principle sugar" in mine by agreeing that Anet mismanagement of some design aspects led to a significant part of the problem of low player skill). I think Anet has taken too much flak from attacks on principles, while trying to keep their business on track and their GW2 project a reality. You may not like how the game is now, but just think for one minute that they may give you in GW2 a part of the fun you had with GW1 when you liked it. We can always try to infer probabilities of this being true by using bits and pieces of data mapped to some statistical model, but I'd rather give them my trust at this point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

And sorry to say this, but this update will not bring back old players, last time when I told my good friends about new expansion they were very excited, this time is: WHAT DID YOU SAY? 10USD? THAT'S JUST STUPID.

Since the "French article episode", you've been overreacting a lot. The april update also brings the menagerie and daily quests, enough for most player to come and take a taste. Except if you're into PvP only.

Mangione · Apr 18, 2009, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

last time when I told my good friends about new expansion they were very excited, this time is: WHAT DID YOU SAY? 10USD? THAT'S JUST STUPID.

The exact same thing happened to me today...
I was at the bar with my usual friends taking a coffee and they began talking about "the great update in WOW with dual spec and stuff", they have all moved over to WOW except me.
Then they asked me "what about GW's 4th birthday?", since I am the most informed about GW among them... from time to time I get them to come back for a week and we play like in the old times, before they return to World of Grindcraft.

I told them of Zaishen Menagerie, Hall of Monuments, Zaishen Missions, and only as last the storage stuff.
They laughed at me when I told "a new tab is 10$". They didn't believe me. (Ok, I play pranks on them from time to time, so they are cautious).
I just told them to check GW Official Site, when they were going home.

I'll try to drag them to GW again though... We shouldn't let the discussion and the troubling about overpriced stuff to obfuscate the awesomeness of the whole update.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

RR, no, thats my friends saying, irl, lol, i always let them know whats happening in GW, cos i am the biggest addict among them, cos i want to play with them, but this time, nope, not gonna happen.

Are you a clone of mine?
Do we share the same friends?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuclfus

Personally I think $10 is a little high, so I'll keep my wallet shut and move on with my life. Why scream for a boycott and drag other people down with me if I miss out?

One of the best parts of this thread.

Sjeng · Apr 18, 2009, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina

Hi, cloud. I understand your perspective on this. I've been keeping an eye on the community response on this. I've already spoken to folks in the business team several times and conveyed all of the different responses to the storage update, including the opinions that it's "overpriced". We know that some people will choose not to buy this feature for any number of reasons. However, we've also seen a large number of comments from people who intend to buy it.

From the OP:

Quote:

US$9.99 is reasonable

I'm no master in economics, but I'd say gaining income from "some" people finding $10 reasonable isn't better than getting income from MANY people finding, say, $2,- reasonable per pane. I think if each pane costs $2 max. they would get MORE income.

Also: €8,99 is no way equal to $9,99. That's a huge ripoff. EU is being screwed over with that rate. I can buy an entire chapter from the retail store for €10,-, so I'll be one of the many peole NOT buying extra slots, and sticking to my GWx2 second account mules. That's the only issue I have though. Really lookng forward to the rest of the update. Thanks Anet.

DreamWind · Apr 18, 2009, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Having ANY kind of discussion on changes that they decide on is thus useless. Riverside can close up.

If everybody used your logic, then yes Riverside should close up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Now, if we still want to discuss the issue - I am arguing that I understand that they can't provide everything for free. So, I don't mind them charging money for something that people just want for vanity reasons.

Except storage and UAX aren't vanity reasons. They are gameplay reasons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Well first of all, the system isn't working.

Seems to be working fine to me...just look at the sales numbers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

What we are dealing with here is a product. And if the product does not meet the desired criteria any longer - it should fail.

I agree. The product does not meet the desired criteria.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Well this is your problem, you see a trend that I (and I bet many others) don't see. As I said, the next Anet product they sell may or may not convince me of that, but at this point, I've got little doubt that there's a trend showing that Anet is trying to change its business model.

You say I see a trend that you and others don't see, then you say you have little doubt that theres a trend showing Anet trying to change its business model?

That is exactly what I have been trying to say. Changing their business model is the slippery slope. If they are trying to change their business model it means they will be trying to do more microtransactions to sell in game stuff in the future. It is already clear they are actively designing things to be sold via microtransaction...why wouldn't it continue if people are willing to pay for it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

I think Anet has taken too much flak from attacks on principles, while trying to keep their business on track and their GW2 project a reality. You may not like how the game is now, but just think for one minute that they may give you in GW2 a part of the fun you had with GW1 when you liked it. We can always try to infer probabilities of this being true by using bits and pieces of data mapped to some statistical model, but I'd rather give them my trust at this point.

I wouldn't, and you should know why by now. Hell, you pointed out some of them yourself in your post.

Some examples:

Near monthly updates (that often inbalanced the game, broke PvP, or didn't solve any of the real problems).

A CR/M (that was almost never involved in the PvP community, replaced by another CR/M that was almost never involved, replaced by another CR/M that is almost never involved).

Grind and lower player skill both increased significantly (despite what the box of the game says).

Selling of game advantages through real money (despite previous reports that this would never happen).

A complete and total letdown of portions of the community (through all of the above).

I'm glad everybody is happy Anet is giving them some candy, but please explain to me and others like me how and why I should put my trust in Anet?

aapo · Apr 18, 2009, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sjeng

I'm no master in economics, but I'd say gaining income from "some" people finding $10 reasonable isn't better than getting income from MANY people finding, say, $2,- reasonable per pane. I think if each pane costs $2 max. they would get MORE income.

- You don't have to be master in economics just to have pair of eyes to look around. First companies charge overprice, because certain people want to be the first ones to get their hands on new stuff. Then the price will gradually drop to more reasonable levels, when hype is wearing off. Second batch of money comes from these bargain hunters. Same thing is happening here: $10 is about max I think anyone would pay for a single tab of storage. It can only come down.

Nodakim · Apr 18, 2009, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terra Jim

Does anyone here actually live in the real world? As the quote here just about sums it up.

This game has been in existence for 4 years. Yes 4 years - or 48 months or 1461 days. We only had to buy the games and voila, we could play as much as we want. So AreaNet gave us OPTIONAL extras which were OUTSIDE of the main games. Character slots, BMP, Skill Packs, GOTY and now Storage.

You didn't have to buy them since they did not affect how you played the game. It made it easier yes, if you did indeed purchase any of these. But in essence, not required. And yet this thread is up in arms about having to PAY for something that they have decided to code and deliver for us. Didn't have to but they have. And we still don't know what we are getting 100% either.

How many example's of applications (be it games or consumer driven) actually are gotten right first time. Anything built and coded from scratch will always have bugs that require updates.

Whenever a whole raft of new features are released, it is part of a major update (Ver 2 from 1 for example). Generally you would be expected to pay an amount of money for this work. Generally but of course, there are exceptions to this rule.

However, based upon the times we are living in and also the fact that the product that is Guild Wars has more than likely exceeded ArenaNet's idea of it's shelf life (as well as sheer size), they have had to change how the GW business model works. Only slightly, but still enough for people to enjoy playing the game WITHOUT having the need to buy something from "the shop" so that they don't lose out on that gaming experience. As I have said in each of my posts here, yes I do think $10 is a little too much but thats the nature of a NEW release. Recoup the revenue and, in time, lower the price (possibly). That remains to be seen too.

So until we get this update and see truely what we actually get, this thread has become pointless drivel.

There is one big difference between "F2P" and P2P.
P2P MMOs get nice big updates every month,which add stuff equal to how much 12 GW updates add.
And the new content isnt a reskin or something the fans made.

Fril Estelin · Apr 18, 2009, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

You say I see a trend that you and others don't see, then you say you have little doubt that theres a trend showing Anet trying to change its business model?

Come on DreamWind, you should have spotted this: I just miswrote "I've got little doubt that there isn't a trend".

Quote:

I wouldn't, and you should know why by now. Hell, you pointed out some of them yourself in your post.

Which highlights how subjective this is. The only objective aspect will happen following April 28th, when players buy or don't buy it, and Anet manages to earn money on this.

Quote:

I'm glad everybody is happy Anet is giving them some candy, but please explain to me and others like me how and why I should put my trust in Anet?

We certainly won't. Given how long (and talkative/argumentative) you've been here, there's no point. You may want to quit altogether the game (and the board?), for your sake and ours. Unless you've got a hidden hope somewhere inside yourself.

(are you really "happy" for "everybody" then mock us by quoting this as a "candy"?)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nodakim

There is one big difference between "F2P" and P2P.
P2P MMOs get nice big updates every month,which add stuff equal to how much 12 GW updates add.
And the new content isnt a reskin or something the fans made.

To me, the biggest difference is how much money I pay. Or inversely how much I'll feel obliged to play each month based on what I pay. It's not because an MMO offers ten thousand quests in a realm the size of a big capital city that it's going to entail me to pay each month for only doing a tiny bit of all that. Not even for the "level of polish", I've got enough feeling of immersion from GW1.

DreamWind · Apr 19, 2009, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Come on DreamWind, you should have spotted this: I just miswrote "I've got little doubt that there isn't a trend".

Oh my bad...well in that case I'm a bit stunned you don't see the trend. You acknowledge they are changing their model...how can you not see the trend?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

We certainly won't. Given how long (and talkative/argumentative) you've been here, there's no point. You may want to quit altogether the game (and the board?), for your sake and ours. Unless you've got a hidden hope somewhere inside yourself.

I'm simply asking questions. It isn't my fault if people aren't answering them or are ignoring them altogether.